INTERVIEW: SHUHEI YOSHIDA ON THE HISTORY OF PLAYSTATION

For 32 years since the launch of the original PlayStation in 1993, Shuhei Yoshida (left) has been working with creators to develop content. Yuki Katayama (right) is general chief of Kodansha Game Lab. Together they talk about the history of the PlayStation and the future of gaming.

Katayama: Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview.

Yoshida: Thank you very much. Recently, people from a variety of industries have entered the indie game publishing industry, but Kodansha was a pioneer. In fact, I've been paying attention to them since the very beginning.

Katayama: I've always thought that the challenging software from the original PS1 era and the approach of today's indie games are similar, so I'd like to ask you mainly about that today.

Yoshida: Really that time was wonderful! The reason I like indie games is because of my original experience in the PSI era. Various types of creators, such as game makers and filmmakers, entered the industry, revitalizing it. Works that were different from any other game genre that had existed up until then, and that made you wonder what genre it was, were being proposed one after another. The industry itself was in a frenzy. 

Katayama: That sense of chaos is what I see now. The other day, I asked a certain lab member (a nickname for indie game creators supported by Kodansha Game Lab) to play "Panekit" for PS1 and "Mosquito" for PS2, and he was shocked, as he is from the generation that was born when the PS3 came out.

Yoshida: I think the late 1990s was the most exciting time for the Japanese game industry. However, in the late 2000s, with the arrival of the PS3 era, it became difficult for Japanese manufacturers to produce innovation. People who grew up during that time were probably not exposed to Japanese games from the late 1990s due to their generation. 

Katayama: When you think about it like that, it's hard to imagine just how much innovation was produced during the PS1 era.

Yoshida: At the time, there were long-standing game platforms like Nintendo and SEGA, but we were new to the game industry with PlayStation. Compared to previous generations, we began to promote game creators through advertising, magazine ads, and promotions. If a creator gained a fan base, people would be interested in playing their next game. The creator would become popular, release a hit, become rich, and become a hero. We thought that if kids who saw this and admired them entered the game industry, it would further invigorate the creator side.

Katayama: That's a typical wonderful way of thinking. I think Fumito Ueda of "Ico" is a prime example of someone who has become a star creator in this way.

Yoshida: Yes. Ueda's works have a loyal fan base, and his next work, "Wanda and the Giant Slayer," was even awarded Game of the Year at GDC [Game Developers Conference]. But that meant a lot of hard work, and Ueda's games took a long time to produce, which was tough. He always pushed beyond the limits of the hardware. For example, "Ico" was originally intended to be released on PSI. However, I could only get 10-15 FPS [frames pr second], so I moved to PS2. For the same reason, I gave up on the PS3 for "The Last Guardian" and moved to the PS4. I'm currently working on a new game, but it's been nine years since the previous one came out, so I wonder when it'll be released? (laughs)

Katayama: But for works by creators like Ueda, the delay in release actually heightens the sense of mystery, and I think that's also a selling point.

Yoshida: In the end, that may be true (laughs). The passion on the production side and the pursuit of perfection are incredible. With "Shadow of the Colossus," I think they went from a state of "Isn't this already finished?" to spending another year refining it. With "The Last Guardian" (see below), I was in charge and stayed with Ueda until the very end, until he was convinced of the parts he wanted to fix, but everyone around me worked hard to persuade him, saying, "Let's just release it now!" To him, his work is like his own child, so I think it would be unbearable to have it taken away midway through.

Katayama: The comparison of "my own child" is very apt. All creators say, "There are still areas that can be improved!"

Yoshida: It seems that they themselves see them as full of flaws. From the outside we think “Wow! A great game has been completed!" but they think this part is not good. There are a lot of things that are needed, and they say they want to fix them. But if you go along with the creator's insistence too much, the game will never be released. On the other hand, if the producer tries too hard to take things away, even if the game is released as planned, the content will be mediocre. It's not good to lean too much to one side. It's difficult to strike a balance.

Katayama: We're always thinking about that balance. The relationship between creators and editors is different for each person, isn't it? There are some creators who want their editors to understand them thoroughly. Recently, there's been a lot of talk online about "editors are unnecessary." What do you think?

Yoshida: Maybe it's because I used to be a producer, but it's definitely the editor's heart. I believe that a guide is essential to bring what creators want to create and what they have inside them out into the world in the best possible way. After all, creators are so close to the work they're creating that they can't tell if their game is interesting or not. They don't know what the actual players will think when they play the game, or what the game is all about. That's why when an unfamiliar user creates something, it's hard to know what will confuse them. That's why you need someone who can look at it from the side lines and say, "This part is hard to understand," from a third-party perspective. By the way, how many editors does Game Lab currently have on staff?

Katayama: We have some people who work in multiple roles, but it's generally around 100 people. Each person is in charge of four-to-five titles. Our staff is diverse, ranging from people with experience as manga and novel editors within Kodansha to people with experience as game producers at other companies.

Yoshida: With that kind of personnel structure, are you considering developing media mixes with other Kodansha titles for future games?

Katayama: Of course! Right now, novelizations of "A Different Winter for Us" and "Grecale" [working codename for an upcoming untitled sci-fi adventure game by Fumito Ueda] are being developed within Kodansha, and there are other plans in the works as well.

Yoshida: That's right. If the novel were to be published by a publishing company and become a hit, I'm sure some important person would ask us why we didn't do it ourselves (laughs).

Katayama: What was the atmosphere like inside Sony when PlayStation was launched? 

Yoshida: I remember there were many opposing opinions. There is Sony, and SCE (Now SIE) as a subsidiary of Sony was established in 1993. But when Ken Kutaragi first mentioned that he wanted to get into the game business, some executives thought that "games are toys," so releasing them under the Sony brand would damage the brand. At first, it was a constant struggle. 

Katayama: So the most enjoyable time in your career was when you launched the game business?

Yoshida: Yes, that's right. We went from being solely focused on hardware development to being involved in the staff, and SCE was seen as the culprit in the department. The company was given to a high-ranking group, and we were given the role of a new member. We were new to the team, but we were small, busy, and there was a lot we didn't understand. We didn't know what to do, so we had no choice but to come up with and create our own rules and move forward at once. With that sense of speed and the fact that everyone, including the top management, was in the same office, we could immediately consult with each other if something happened. Everyone was like, "We're going to make amazing hardware and surprise the world!" I also happened to get the chance to be a producer for "Crash Bandit" and "Saru Getchu" (Ape Escape). It was a crazy time, but it was fun. Nowadays, game development takes a long time, but back then the development cycle was one to two years, so we could make new games one after another.

Katayama: The sense of speed at the time was incredible. SCE also produced new titles one after another, such as "Gran Turismo," "The Legend of Dragoon," and "Xsol." I think that's similar to the state of indie games today.

Yoshida: If you make it with a small number of people in a short period of time, it doesn't take much time. The risk is low, so it was easy for 'baby' producers like me at the time and young creatives to make it. So we decided to let the developers try it out. This created a breeding ground for new game creators. The reason why many of Japan's leading creators from the PS1 era are  still active is probably because of the experience they gained back then.

Katayama: I heard that when you join a major game company, you are assigned to a team of around 100 people with many senior colleagues, and most people work on a specific part of that title for four to five years. This means that creative talent is not being nurtured, and young creators are not able to make a name for themselves. It's not a good situation that the top creators are still people in their 50s who have been making things for a long time.

Yoshida: But now that indie games are becoming more well-known, it's becoming easier for young people in Japan to try their hand at game development. There are also more and more companies supporting this movement. I hope that people will learn by creating and releasing a game...

Katayama: In 2019, while still at SIE, you took on the role of "indie initiative." Was it because you felt there was a sense of crisis about the lack of young creators?

Yoshida: Yes, there is that aspect to it. PlayStation has always had a culture of attracting new creators, ideas, and innovation. Up until the time of the PS3 and PS Vita, they worked hard to attract indie games. However, somewhere around the middle of the PS4, voices began to leak out from the industry that it was unclear to what extent PlayStation would support indie games as a platform. At the time, I was in charge of our own titles, but we felt that this had to change, so the company created a new role called the "Indie Initiative." I kept saying that there was value in taking action to bring new ideas to the world, and that it was important for the company as well. At the same time, I took on a variety of tasks outside the company, such as pushing and promoting titles. 

Katayama: You were the PR captain.

Yoshida: But the real purpose was to make old people like me think, "So, let's do it." After about six years of doing this, it has finally taken root within SIE... but are there still areas for improvement. Anyway, I left SIE to work on the indie developer and publisher side. I'm currently helping with rebranding by looking at games in development and giving feedback. I'm still busy, and I'm grateful to be able to lead a fulfilling life.

Katayama: The theme of this issue of Game Lab Magazine is "Expanding the 'boundaries' of games," and in this interview I wanted to learn from your oral history how the original Playstation expanded the boundaries of games, by learning from the past.

Yoshida: I see. To create an unconventional game that expands the boundaries of gaming, you need to get away from thinking, "This is what's popular in marketing, so let's make it!" It would end up being the same as existing games. Breakthroughs don't happen unless the creator has an extraordinary passion for something, like "This is the kind of game I want to make," or "I'm going to make it no matter what anyone says."

Katayama: To be widely accepted, you need a passion that can't be measured by data marketing. From a marketing perspective, some analysis suggests that you should create a game that can be played for long periods of time and includes online battles, but there's also the option of focusing on works that creators are passionate about. I think one example of this was "A Different Winter for Us." When the proposal was sent to the creator, there were still very few two-player cooperative games on the market. I think it was after the COVID-19 outbreak that the market for cooperative games on Steam began to grow in a noticeable way.

Yoshida: There weren't many games where two people played together, rather than against each other. Nowadays, there's data that shows there's a need, so it's probably easier to get a plan approved, but it's no fun to follow someone else. You have to be the pioneer.

Katayama: Finally, what do you think the future holds?

Yoshida: I'm optimistic. The total population is sure to continue to grow. There are a lot of games coming out of China, Korea, and Southeast Asia, each of which is creating new content based on their own country's culture. Interesting games are also coming out from India, the Middle East, Africa and South America, created by people with a variety of backgrounds and with their own unique perspectives. The future of indie games is bright.

Katayama: Those are very warm and encouraging words! What do you think will happen to indie games in Japan?

Yoshida: I think Japanese creators will take flight and take things to the world more than ever before. Perhaps because major publishers have reigned supreme in Japan for a long time, there are still few hit indie games from Japan. But recently, some kind of notable title has been released every year, and opportunities for support, including new publishers and funds, are increasing, including from the government. I believe that the young talents of Japan that have been nurtured in this environment will amaze the world.

Katayama: I will do my best to create such a work. Thank you for taking the time to come today despite your busy schedule.

Yoshida: Thank you very much.